Dewey's Diva
02-11-2007, 02:02 AM
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/custom/mma/bal-elitexcqa208,0,4921170.story?coll=bal-sports-more
One-on-one with EliteXC President Gary Shaw
Q&A with the MMA executive and boxing promoter
By Pramit Mohapatra
Special to Baltimoresun.com
February 9, 2007
With the popularity of mixed martial arts (MMA) growing, it was inevitable that the leading promoter of the sport in the United States ? the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) -- would have to contend with competing circuits. While other leagues have popped up to challenge the UFC over the last few years, very few of these upstarts have had staying power.
But none of these other leagues have had the backing of a major premium cable channel. That changes Saturday when another contender steps into the ring against the UFC. Elite Xtreme Combat's (EliteXC) debut event in Southaven, Miss., will air on Showtime, a network with a long history of broadcasting boxing. Showtime recently announced a partnership and programming deal with EliteXC's parent company, Pro Elite, Inc., an agreement that secured the first-ever premium cable broadcasts for MMA.
The event undercard will also be accessible via streaming video at ProElite.com. The featured fight ? a matchup between Frank Shamrock and Renzo Gracie -- will air on Showtime.
EliteXC President Gary Shaw was interviewed by phone Feb. 1. New to the world of MMA, Shaw served as a boxing regulator on the New Jersey State Athletic Commission for 28 years (1971-1999) before working as a boxing promoter, according to a company news release.
The Q&A covered topics such as Shaw's feelings about the UFC, EliteXC's upcoming event and his thoughts on what ails boxing.
EliteXC vs. UFC
I recently interviewed UFC President Dana White. During the interview, White was not especially kind to your league, calling it a "rinky-dink upstart" and saying EliteXC doesn't "even really exist." Given his comments, why do you think you can compete with the UFC for fans and fighters?
Well, let me talk a little about Dana White first. I happen to know [Station Casinos President and UFC co-owner] Lorenzo Fertitta very well -- his boss -- and Marc Ratner [UFC's Vice President of Regulatory Affairs], who's like a brother to me. I have a great respect for them. I have a great respect for UFC. I have a great respect for their product, their fighters, and what they've done. But to Dana White, I don't throw stones. I don't disparage anybody.
But before he [Dana White] went to work for the UFC, maybe he should tell all the fans how long he's been doing anything professionally on his resume. And anytime that Dana White would like to match his resume against mine in the field of sports, fighting, regulatory, you can give him my email or my cell number. But, I don't think there's any need for that. I think if everybody works together it benefits the fans, it benefits the MMA sport. And maybe Dana White doesn't really care about the fans or care about the sport. Maybe he only cares about the M-O-N-E-Y.
And why do I think we can compete? Because we have a three-year contract with Showtime. We're paying fighters what they deserve to be paid. We're out looking for new talent. And we're looking to put on great shows. We're looking to put on exciting shows. There are a lot of great fighters out there that have yet to be discovered. I don't think any one organization has every great fighter. And I think that the more product that's out there, the better it is.
You don't have one boxing promoter. See, what Dana White is not focusing on is that there's not just one boxing promoter. It's not just Gary Shaw Productions. But there's Bob Arum and Top Rank, there's Don King. You know, there's a lot of different promoters that have a lot of different fighters and that's what makes it exciting. But why he only wants it for the UFC -- it just doesn't make any sense. You want one and one to make three, not one and one to make two.
Why do you think the UFC has been successful up to this point?
They've been successful because they were the first one out of the box and they got a basic cable deal with Spike TV. Before Spike TV, they were treading water. So, it wasn't that the UFC did it -- it was the fact that they got on Spike [which] was the thing that really shot them out of the cannon.
In the same interview, Dana White said that the UFC does not specifically market to women. EliteXC, on the other hand, seems intent on attracting women to the sport. What are you doing specifically to market to women?
We're becoming fan-friendly. I made sure that we went out and got a woman to fight on our very first card, which is Gina Carano, who to me is beautiful outside and inside. And she can also fight. So that the men in the audience watching will say, "Wow, she's really hot," and the women will be proud to be represented by someone like her who can fight. And we're just trying to be friendly, because I realize that in order to do big promotions you need that crossover. You need the women to look at the sport for the beauty it is and not [view it] as barbaric. And to have a great time. So, I'm marketing to women, for sure.
Your first fight card is going to feature a women's bout between Gina Carano and Julie Kedzie. You mentioned a couple of reasons in the previous question. Why else did you decide to hold women's fights?
Because when I do boxing, every time that I've ever put a women's fight on -- for whatever reason -- it's one of the hits of the night. Everybody likes to see two women fight. You'd have to get a sociologist to really comment as to why everybody likes to see two women fight. But for whatever [reason] that is -- and I'm not a sociologist -- I decided to do a women's fight and when I asked everybody who I should get all roads led to Gina Carano.
I've read previous interviews that indicate you are a big fan -- and you mentioned this in the opening question -- of working together with other promotions such as UFC and PRIDE on cooperative events. Have you started up discussions with these organizations on holding cooperative events?
I have not personally but there has been some dialog and I didn't want to do it on a personal level until after I did the very first event -- until I spent a few months in the trenches. I have great respect for everybody and I don't want to go to a meeting and not understand what I'm talking about and not understand the pitfalls. But I am a huge fan of working together. I think working together works.
And from what you understand of the dialog that has been taking place, what has been their response so far?
I really can't comment at this time, other than I will not stop trying to work with other organizations and maybe pull a few surprises out of the hat.
Do you think EliteXC, UFC and PRIDE can co-exist side-by-side for the indefinite future or do you think eventually one will have to reign supreme?
No, I don't think anybody has to reign supreme. The only people that have to reign supreme are the athletes. And that's the difference. In my organization, it's all about the athletes. That's who reigns supreme. It's not about Gary Shaw. Nobody really cares about Gary Shaw. Nobody cares [about] what I have to say. But they do care about the fighters and they care about what the fighters have to say.
You know, in the UFC, it's all about the UFC and Dana White. I understand he walks around with bodyguards now. I mean, I don't get that. It should be about the fighter. It should be [about] the person that gets into that cage and puts his life on the line every fight. So, that's what I want to do. I want to make it about the fighter.
Can we co-exist? Of course. Can three gas stations on three different corners co-exist? Are there a lot of dry-cleaners? Are there a lot of restaurants? Is there a McDonalds? Is there Burger King? Is there Mobile, a BP, an Exxon? There's no reason why it shouldn't. We shouldn't be trying to knock one another off because eventually you won't have a sport. You'll have one organization.
But if you want to make this worldwide and you want to make it big and you want to make it gigantic, then you need to work together. Just like in boxing -- everybody works together. It doesn't mean we like one another. It doesn't mean we're not all trying to sign the best athletes. It won't work with just one organization. Believe me -- that's an impossibility long-term.
EliteXC's first event
Your first event is being held at the Desoto Civic Center in Southaven, Miss. The seating capacity of Desoto Civic Center is 7,200. How many tickets have you sold so far for the event? We're right around 4,000 [as of Feb. 1] and we have a week to go and the walk-up and I believe we'll have a sell-out.
How many tickets will you need to sell in order for you to consider the event a success?
I believe the event is a success right now. The fact that we're going live live with the Internet. The fact that we're giving it to the fans without pay-per-view -- on Showtime. That's a win-win.
What can you tell us about the production value at the event? For example, the production is pretty extravagant at a PRIDE event but somewhat minimalistic at a UFC event. What will the production value be at the first EliteXC event?
I would think in the middle [of] PRIDE and UFC. We're trying to take a little from each.
Do you have any more specifics on what we should expect?
I would expect a little smoke, a little mirror, a little pyro, good light show, great-looking EliteXC girls -- plenty of them -- dancing in the aisles, crowd involvement, interactive -- a great experience.
How many total events will you have this year?
Six to eight.
Do you have any more information on where and when your next events will be held?
Not right now, but we will within the coming week.
EliteXC's media plans
Showtime reportedly has about 15 million subscribers. How many viewers would you like to attract to this first event to consider it a success?
Well, we go by ratings points, but I would hope that we do as well as -- if not better than -- any boxing match that Showtime has aired either this year or last year.
The Tito Ortiz-Ken Shamrock fight in October 2006 reportedly drew 4.5 million viewers. Are you aiming for more viewers than that?
4.5 million where?
On Spike TV.
Well, I don't know. I don't know what they did but I know that Showtime is putting a lot of muscle behind this and I believe that we will do substantial numbers. I don't know what they are. I'd rather not speculate at this point.
But, you're also talking about basic cable versus premium cable and the basic cable universe could be 80 million [viewers]. The Showtime universe is 15 million.
What innovations will TV viewers see in Showtime's telecast of the first event?
I think we're working harder on lighting the product better. And being fan-friendly as a viewer -- as a TV viewer. We have an Emmy-award winning director with Showtime and we have David Dinkins who's done a lot of work. So, we got a lot of staff, we've got a lot of great talent that are going to try to bring a great experience to the fans.
Today, Showtime announced that it is making an investment in ProElite -- EliteXC's parent company. How important is Showtime's backing in the development of EliteXC?
It's huge. The fact that your cable partner wants to address you by putting their money where their mouth is -- I think that's huge. That shows the confidence they have in us, in me, and in the MMA space. And the fans should be really excited about that. It means that they're really behind it. They've never done that for boxing.
Will Showtime have other programs (i.e., non-event programming) featuring EliteXC?
? Right now, we have a half-hour show on [Frank] Shamrock and [Renzo] Gracie and Krazy Horse [Charles Bennett] and KJ Noons and Gina [Carano] that's running on Showtime all through the day and all through the night, leading up to the show.
And you think there will be more of that kind of supportive programming in the future?
Absolutely.
You have said previously that you are looking for alliances with other TV networks or cable outlets. Do you have any updates on how that's going?
Not at this time. Not that I can discuss.
OK. But you are in ongoing discussions for that?
Yes.
And you think a deal in that space would be forthcoming sometime in 2007?
I would hope so.
You've previously mentioned developing an EliteXC reality show. Do you have any more details on that?
We're working on two different shows right now. And that's all I can tell you because we're just working on the shows.
So, will they be similar to The Ultimate Fighter show on Spike TV, or totally new, different concepts?
No, they'll be different concepts. We're not trying to imitate what the UFC is doing. So, I can say that. And I have never even seen their program. But, we have some original programming that we will be doing.
So, do you already have your cast and are you already filming that?
Not totally. We're working on it. We're in the final stages right now of branding the idea.
Showtime has traditionally been a big outlet for boxing events. Does Showtime's backing of EliteXC say anything about its commitment to boxing?
No, I would think that in the underpinnings it may say, "Boxing beware," but it definitely says to the MMA world, "MMA here we come."
UFC's pay-per-view numbers have reportedly been climbing over the last few years. Under what conditions will EliteXC ever hold pay-per-view events?
We'll pay-per-view when we think that it deems it worthy to the fans of plunking down $39 or $49 for a fight.
Do you foresee that happening this year?
I would hope later this year we'll have one.
It appears that EliteXC is also trying to leverage the power of the Internet. For example, you hired The Apprentice season two winner Kelly Perdew to oversee the online operations of your promotion. You are also streaming undercard fights live online. And you've launched an interactive Web site, ProElite.com. Another interesting idea you've previously mentioned is holding MMA tournaments streamed only on the Internet, where the winner earns the right to fight on TV. Do you have any details on when the first such Internet tournament will be held?
I don't have a date yet, but you are correct -- we are working on that and we're working on taking a traveling show around the United States and moving the winner along until he becomes a brilliant star.
What other plans -- besides the ones I've mentioned -- does EliteXC have to leverage the Internet?
The site launched yesterday -- ProElite.com -- and [MMA supporters] will find that it's very fan-friendly. You can pick out fans and friends, and you can even be a foe -- you can pick out a foe and be someone's foe. And to those that grew up with this generation, I think they'll love the site. And what's on the site is what's going to attract them to keep coming back more and more.
EliteXC fighters
Brandon Vera -- a UFC heavyweight with only one fight left on his contract -- was at your first press conference in December. Are you negotiating with him to join your league?
No, I love Brandon, but I've had no negotiations or discussions with him. He's under contract. When he's out of contract I'd be more than happy to have a discussion with him or with Mark Dion [Vera's manager]. I love Brandon. He's a great fighter and he's a great guy.
Can you tell us what other fighters you are negotiating with?
No. [Laughing]
Currently, I am speaking to other fighters. I just can't at this time [talk about those discussions] because of the sensitivity of it.
These are fighters who have fought in UFC and/or PRIDE?
Some maybe, some not.
How long are the contracts with Gracie, Shamrock and David Loiseau?
They range from three fights to multi-years.
Would you mind if we went fighter by fighter on that?
Go ahead.
Renzo Gracie?
Renzo Gracie I have a one-fight deal with.
Frank Shamrock?
I have a long-term commitment.
Multiple years?
It's a long-term commitment.
David Loiseau?
It's a commitment.
I've read that EliteXC's contracts with fighters are non-exclusive, that is, fighters can fight for other promotions as well as for EliteXC. Why do you think this is a good policy for EliteXC?
Because I think that you need to [sign fighters to non-exclusive contracts] for two reasons. If you are going to stand up and say it's about the fighters, then make it about the fighters. If they can go out and they can get notoriety around the world, why should I stand in the way? If they can fight someone and earn a good payday, I don't believe in standing in the way. I don't think one loss is the end of someone's career. You couldn't do it in boxing. But you sure can do it in the MMA world.
Why should a current UFC or PRIDE fighter consider signing with your promotion?
Because they're with Gary Shaw, the greatest promoter of all time. On a serious note, we're a public company. Obviously our books are open. I believe that we are very, very fighter-friendly. We care about our fighters. We're a group that's dedicated to the sport of MMA. And if I could be with someone -- and I know this is a real pompous statement and I don't mean it that way -- but if I could be with someone, I'd want to be with Gary Shaw.
When you say you are fighter-friendly, can you give specific examples of how you are fighter-friendly?
I fight for my fighters. In boxing, I've been punched, I've been knocked down. I believe in protecting my fighters. I go to war for them. I try to get them the most money that I can. I try to get them the best exposure. I try to make them the biggest stars. I'm honest -- I tell a fighter like it is. If it's past a fighter's prime, I tell the fighter that. I never want to put anybody in harm's way. I care about the health, safety, and welfare of a fighter. So, I'm known as fighter-friendly because if a fighter tells me, "Hey look, if I don't have to come in on Tuesday, I can come in this day" or whatever, I try to do what's best for my fighter. And I think the fighters know that. The boxers that I represent will tell you that. And I keep my word. I told Chad Dawson that I was going to bring him to a world title.
Why should an MMA fan come to your Feb. 10 event, and if they can't come, why should they watch it on Showtime?
I guess you want to come because you've got a Gracie and a Shamrock in the cage. You want to come because you've got Krazy Horse against KJ Noons. You want to come because you've got Silva -- the original Bigfoot that's missing -- [and he's] over three hundred pounds. You've got Gina Carano -- great-looking. You've got some really great fights, some great strikers, a lot of action, fan-friendly. It's going to be an event -- it's not just a fight. Great, great-looking EliteXC girls dancing in the aisles, dancing with the fans, taking pictures, putting them on the Internet -- best-looking chick, best-looking guy, best-looking couple. All kinds of stuff that will be a great experience. That's why someone should come out to the arena.
And if you can't [come to the arena], watch us on the Internet 7 p.m. on ProElite.com. Watch on Showtime.
Boxing vs. Mixed Martial Arts
You have been a boxing promoter for a long time. And you are still currently a boxing promoter. In fact, I understand you are in Florida right now promoting the Feb. 3 fight between Chad Dawson and Thomas Adamek for the WBC light heavyweight title (Editor's note: Dawson won by unanimous decision). As a new member of the MMA community, do you have mixed feelings about promoting a boxing match that is taking place the same night as a huge MMA event -- UFC 67?
No, I don't at all. Because on Feb. 10, when I'm doing our first MMA event -- Destiny: Gracie vs. Shamrock -- I have a fighter [boxer] fighting on HBO for the number one mandatory position in WBC. I have Vivian Harris fighting against Juan Lazcano.
I think they [boxing and MMA] are two different audiences. Yes, you have to -- just by attrition -- lose some people to one and lose some to the other, but I don't think in any great numbers.
In fact, there was no magic with Feb. 3 -- it wasn't, "We're putting on a fight -- a boxing match -- just to go against UFC." As a matter of fact, Showtime goes the first Saturday of every month with boxing. So, the UFC -- and I know they are a sophisticated organization -- they knew that Showtime had a boxing match on that date. Just like they have one on March 3, which is the first Saturday.
So, it's not trying to go against one another. There's room for boxing, there's room for wrestling, and there's room for MMA.
Why did you cross over from boxing and decide to do MMA promotion as well?
I switched over because I saw the great opportunity in the mixed martial arts. I saw that there were regional shows doing 1,500, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 people -- not UFC, just regional shows -- while we were putting on big boxing matches on HBO and Showtime and trying to get 4,000 people in an arena. So, it really made me look at what was going on.
The other big thing was my son Jared, who's 26 -- he goes by the name Skala and he's going to be one of the announcers on the Internet portion of the show -- kept saying to me, "Hey dad, you got to get into MMA. You have to do it." I wasn't listening and he is the demographic [target of MMA] and he said, "Look you're a [Type] A personality. You're going to go to the train station but instead of being the engineer on the locomotive, all you're going to do is watch the caboose leave the train station."
And, it really resonated with me -- it made me take notice.
Boxing over the last few years has appeared to suffer from an image problem in the eyes of -- at least -- casual fans. What has boxing done to hurt itself over the years?
Not put on the very best matches, too many pay-per-views, too many pay-per-views that didn't deserve to be pay-per-views ? so, it's like ripping off the public. Trying to do too many soft fights for their fighters. And I don't get it. You'll hear someone say, "Well, he deserves an easy fight. He fought two hard fights in a row." Hey, that's what he does for a living. Nobody forced him. There are people that get up everyday that are landscapers that work hard. So, what do they say? "I had two hard jobs so tomorrow I'm just going to do some trimming." It doesn't work that way.
What do you think boxing can do to remedy those problems and pick itself up?
It's going to be very difficult because you're losing some boxers now to the MMA -- guys that would want to be boxers. The other fighters -- there are very few gyms around. So, it's hard to go to a gym. The other guys that we used to have that are the big heavyweights are now playing in the NBA and the NFL and have decided to do a different sport.
And it's an older crowd and the demographic is changing and that's what makes the MMA world so exciting is guys taking their girlfriends, guys taking their wives, girls are going with girls for girls night out. There's something about it that's resonating with the fans. And boxing just does not have that.
That leads me to my next question. In your opinion, what is MMA doing right that is attracting so many fans?
That's your best question of the day. And I say that because I'm not sure. There's something right about it. I think I have an idea what it is but I would really need the help of a sociologist and this is my thought process. The 18-35 demographic which everybody says it is -- I think it stretches a little wider and deeper -- but assuming that's the major demographic, they grew up with computers and all these video games. They're used to the violence, they're used to the action, they're used to the quick pace -- they're used to everything about what MMA is. And I think that's part of what they really like about it -- watching almost a street fight. And it's watching, trying to figure out, does the striker beat the ground guy, or the kickboxer, whatever it is.
But, it's a social phenomenon just like YouTube and MySpace. They are new social phenomenons. If you told someone years ago, "You're going to do this thing where people are going to sign on and meet people and get friends" -- it wouldn't resonate, it just wouldn't mean anything. So, there's something going on and that, I think, is the single biggest attraction with MMA.
The other thing it has going for it that boxing doesn't is that in the suburbs, white-collar people are taking their little girls and their little boys to studios, gyms, or schools. So, there are that many more people interested in this and into the self-defense or whatever it is. But, now with the new MMA, it is a phenomenon and I'm not sure that I could put my finger totally on it. I'm in awe as well.
Given your intimate involvement with boxing, what is your general sense of the feeling of the boxing community toward the sport of MMA?
Well, I think that the boxing general public [is] more kind to me about crossing over and doing both than the MMA world has been to me. And that was heartening to the boxing people, [but] a little disheartening that the MMA people would be harsh on me before giving me the opportunity to try to show them that I'm not just a capitalist, but I'm trying to do the right thing for the sport.
The biggest thing is that in boxing I've never gotten -- to this date -- one piece of hate mail saying "Oh, you're leaving boxing, you're leaving your fighters," or whatever. Because I would never leave my fighters -- I have a responsibility to them.
Is the boxing community threatened at all by the rise of MMA?
Oh yeah. Absolutely threatened. Because when Showtime and HBO go in it [MMA], there's only so much money out there so it's got to cannibalize the boxing budget.
Look, I find it interesting that Dana White is always trashing boxing. Boxing is the biggest thing that HBO has. So, it's going to be interesting how Ross Greenberg, the president of HBO, deals with Dana White. There is where you have a real conflict.
In your opinion can MMA and boxing co-exist going forward?
Sure, I think they can co-exist. My hope is that MMA becomes an Olympic sport by 2012. I'd like to add that to my legacy in the sport. I think they absolutely can [co-exist] -- they are both sports, they both have somewhat of a following, some more loyal to one than the other. And I don't see any reason why [they] can't co-exist.
You just mentioned a desire to have MMA as an Olympic sport by 2012, which is something you've made commonly known. Why do you think Olympic recognition is an important goal for MMA?
Because I think it spreads the goodwill. It spreads the sport. It spreads what the sport is about. And just because it's in a cage -- it's not always in a cage -- but when it's in a cage that doesn't mean it's not a sport. I've come to learn about the discipline and how long it takes to really become a seasoned professional MMA fighter. And you have something boxing doesn't have -- I know I'm segueing out for a moment ? and that is in the MMA one loss is not catastrophic like [in] boxing. And there's no harm in submitting. And there's a lot to it. But, I think the fact that if it could be in the Olympics and get that huge international flavor, it would make [MMA] that much bigger and whatever the fan base is now in MMA, it would grow exponentially.
And are you doing anything currently to make this Olympic dream a reality?
Yeah, little by little. We have a great Web site -- ProElite.com -- and we're making it very, very fan-friendly and very, very fighter-friendly. And we're going to start an educational process with it. I believe that no matter what you do, you owe something back to the public. So, we're going to do educational stuff and we're going to put our money where our mouth is.
Along with being a promoter, you spent 28 years as a member of New Jersey State Athletic Commission. How have you used that experience in your new role as an MMA promoter?
Well, like I said early on, I'm a regulator, so the fact is that when you regulate sports -- and we used to regulate even professional wrestling -- you get to meet all the athletes. You get to find out what they like and what they don't like and where they feel threatened or where someone takes advantage of them. So, it gave me those years of the discipline to have an organization that respects the fighters and tries to take care of the fighters and do what's needed. So that you can build stars and you can make it -- as I said before -- about them. You can only do that if they believe in you.
Are you directly involved in having MMA sanctioned in more states?
Well, I haven't yet because truly I've had my hands full. But, there's no one better out there than Marc Ratner, so like in NASCAR, I think I'll draft on Marc.
One-on-one with EliteXC President Gary Shaw
Q&A with the MMA executive and boxing promoter
By Pramit Mohapatra
Special to Baltimoresun.com
February 9, 2007
With the popularity of mixed martial arts (MMA) growing, it was inevitable that the leading promoter of the sport in the United States ? the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) -- would have to contend with competing circuits. While other leagues have popped up to challenge the UFC over the last few years, very few of these upstarts have had staying power.
But none of these other leagues have had the backing of a major premium cable channel. That changes Saturday when another contender steps into the ring against the UFC. Elite Xtreme Combat's (EliteXC) debut event in Southaven, Miss., will air on Showtime, a network with a long history of broadcasting boxing. Showtime recently announced a partnership and programming deal with EliteXC's parent company, Pro Elite, Inc., an agreement that secured the first-ever premium cable broadcasts for MMA.
The event undercard will also be accessible via streaming video at ProElite.com. The featured fight ? a matchup between Frank Shamrock and Renzo Gracie -- will air on Showtime.
EliteXC President Gary Shaw was interviewed by phone Feb. 1. New to the world of MMA, Shaw served as a boxing regulator on the New Jersey State Athletic Commission for 28 years (1971-1999) before working as a boxing promoter, according to a company news release.
The Q&A covered topics such as Shaw's feelings about the UFC, EliteXC's upcoming event and his thoughts on what ails boxing.
EliteXC vs. UFC
I recently interviewed UFC President Dana White. During the interview, White was not especially kind to your league, calling it a "rinky-dink upstart" and saying EliteXC doesn't "even really exist." Given his comments, why do you think you can compete with the UFC for fans and fighters?
Well, let me talk a little about Dana White first. I happen to know [Station Casinos President and UFC co-owner] Lorenzo Fertitta very well -- his boss -- and Marc Ratner [UFC's Vice President of Regulatory Affairs], who's like a brother to me. I have a great respect for them. I have a great respect for UFC. I have a great respect for their product, their fighters, and what they've done. But to Dana White, I don't throw stones. I don't disparage anybody.
But before he [Dana White] went to work for the UFC, maybe he should tell all the fans how long he's been doing anything professionally on his resume. And anytime that Dana White would like to match his resume against mine in the field of sports, fighting, regulatory, you can give him my email or my cell number. But, I don't think there's any need for that. I think if everybody works together it benefits the fans, it benefits the MMA sport. And maybe Dana White doesn't really care about the fans or care about the sport. Maybe he only cares about the M-O-N-E-Y.
And why do I think we can compete? Because we have a three-year contract with Showtime. We're paying fighters what they deserve to be paid. We're out looking for new talent. And we're looking to put on great shows. We're looking to put on exciting shows. There are a lot of great fighters out there that have yet to be discovered. I don't think any one organization has every great fighter. And I think that the more product that's out there, the better it is.
You don't have one boxing promoter. See, what Dana White is not focusing on is that there's not just one boxing promoter. It's not just Gary Shaw Productions. But there's Bob Arum and Top Rank, there's Don King. You know, there's a lot of different promoters that have a lot of different fighters and that's what makes it exciting. But why he only wants it for the UFC -- it just doesn't make any sense. You want one and one to make three, not one and one to make two.
Why do you think the UFC has been successful up to this point?
They've been successful because they were the first one out of the box and they got a basic cable deal with Spike TV. Before Spike TV, they were treading water. So, it wasn't that the UFC did it -- it was the fact that they got on Spike [which] was the thing that really shot them out of the cannon.
In the same interview, Dana White said that the UFC does not specifically market to women. EliteXC, on the other hand, seems intent on attracting women to the sport. What are you doing specifically to market to women?
We're becoming fan-friendly. I made sure that we went out and got a woman to fight on our very first card, which is Gina Carano, who to me is beautiful outside and inside. And she can also fight. So that the men in the audience watching will say, "Wow, she's really hot," and the women will be proud to be represented by someone like her who can fight. And we're just trying to be friendly, because I realize that in order to do big promotions you need that crossover. You need the women to look at the sport for the beauty it is and not [view it] as barbaric. And to have a great time. So, I'm marketing to women, for sure.
Your first fight card is going to feature a women's bout between Gina Carano and Julie Kedzie. You mentioned a couple of reasons in the previous question. Why else did you decide to hold women's fights?
Because when I do boxing, every time that I've ever put a women's fight on -- for whatever reason -- it's one of the hits of the night. Everybody likes to see two women fight. You'd have to get a sociologist to really comment as to why everybody likes to see two women fight. But for whatever [reason] that is -- and I'm not a sociologist -- I decided to do a women's fight and when I asked everybody who I should get all roads led to Gina Carano.
I've read previous interviews that indicate you are a big fan -- and you mentioned this in the opening question -- of working together with other promotions such as UFC and PRIDE on cooperative events. Have you started up discussions with these organizations on holding cooperative events?
I have not personally but there has been some dialog and I didn't want to do it on a personal level until after I did the very first event -- until I spent a few months in the trenches. I have great respect for everybody and I don't want to go to a meeting and not understand what I'm talking about and not understand the pitfalls. But I am a huge fan of working together. I think working together works.
And from what you understand of the dialog that has been taking place, what has been their response so far?
I really can't comment at this time, other than I will not stop trying to work with other organizations and maybe pull a few surprises out of the hat.
Do you think EliteXC, UFC and PRIDE can co-exist side-by-side for the indefinite future or do you think eventually one will have to reign supreme?
No, I don't think anybody has to reign supreme. The only people that have to reign supreme are the athletes. And that's the difference. In my organization, it's all about the athletes. That's who reigns supreme. It's not about Gary Shaw. Nobody really cares about Gary Shaw. Nobody cares [about] what I have to say. But they do care about the fighters and they care about what the fighters have to say.
You know, in the UFC, it's all about the UFC and Dana White. I understand he walks around with bodyguards now. I mean, I don't get that. It should be about the fighter. It should be [about] the person that gets into that cage and puts his life on the line every fight. So, that's what I want to do. I want to make it about the fighter.
Can we co-exist? Of course. Can three gas stations on three different corners co-exist? Are there a lot of dry-cleaners? Are there a lot of restaurants? Is there a McDonalds? Is there Burger King? Is there Mobile, a BP, an Exxon? There's no reason why it shouldn't. We shouldn't be trying to knock one another off because eventually you won't have a sport. You'll have one organization.
But if you want to make this worldwide and you want to make it big and you want to make it gigantic, then you need to work together. Just like in boxing -- everybody works together. It doesn't mean we like one another. It doesn't mean we're not all trying to sign the best athletes. It won't work with just one organization. Believe me -- that's an impossibility long-term.
EliteXC's first event
Your first event is being held at the Desoto Civic Center in Southaven, Miss. The seating capacity of Desoto Civic Center is 7,200. How many tickets have you sold so far for the event? We're right around 4,000 [as of Feb. 1] and we have a week to go and the walk-up and I believe we'll have a sell-out.
How many tickets will you need to sell in order for you to consider the event a success?
I believe the event is a success right now. The fact that we're going live live with the Internet. The fact that we're giving it to the fans without pay-per-view -- on Showtime. That's a win-win.
What can you tell us about the production value at the event? For example, the production is pretty extravagant at a PRIDE event but somewhat minimalistic at a UFC event. What will the production value be at the first EliteXC event?
I would think in the middle [of] PRIDE and UFC. We're trying to take a little from each.
Do you have any more specifics on what we should expect?
I would expect a little smoke, a little mirror, a little pyro, good light show, great-looking EliteXC girls -- plenty of them -- dancing in the aisles, crowd involvement, interactive -- a great experience.
How many total events will you have this year?
Six to eight.
Do you have any more information on where and when your next events will be held?
Not right now, but we will within the coming week.
EliteXC's media plans
Showtime reportedly has about 15 million subscribers. How many viewers would you like to attract to this first event to consider it a success?
Well, we go by ratings points, but I would hope that we do as well as -- if not better than -- any boxing match that Showtime has aired either this year or last year.
The Tito Ortiz-Ken Shamrock fight in October 2006 reportedly drew 4.5 million viewers. Are you aiming for more viewers than that?
4.5 million where?
On Spike TV.
Well, I don't know. I don't know what they did but I know that Showtime is putting a lot of muscle behind this and I believe that we will do substantial numbers. I don't know what they are. I'd rather not speculate at this point.
But, you're also talking about basic cable versus premium cable and the basic cable universe could be 80 million [viewers]. The Showtime universe is 15 million.
What innovations will TV viewers see in Showtime's telecast of the first event?
I think we're working harder on lighting the product better. And being fan-friendly as a viewer -- as a TV viewer. We have an Emmy-award winning director with Showtime and we have David Dinkins who's done a lot of work. So, we got a lot of staff, we've got a lot of great talent that are going to try to bring a great experience to the fans.
Today, Showtime announced that it is making an investment in ProElite -- EliteXC's parent company. How important is Showtime's backing in the development of EliteXC?
It's huge. The fact that your cable partner wants to address you by putting their money where their mouth is -- I think that's huge. That shows the confidence they have in us, in me, and in the MMA space. And the fans should be really excited about that. It means that they're really behind it. They've never done that for boxing.
Will Showtime have other programs (i.e., non-event programming) featuring EliteXC?
? Right now, we have a half-hour show on [Frank] Shamrock and [Renzo] Gracie and Krazy Horse [Charles Bennett] and KJ Noons and Gina [Carano] that's running on Showtime all through the day and all through the night, leading up to the show.
And you think there will be more of that kind of supportive programming in the future?
Absolutely.
You have said previously that you are looking for alliances with other TV networks or cable outlets. Do you have any updates on how that's going?
Not at this time. Not that I can discuss.
OK. But you are in ongoing discussions for that?
Yes.
And you think a deal in that space would be forthcoming sometime in 2007?
I would hope so.
You've previously mentioned developing an EliteXC reality show. Do you have any more details on that?
We're working on two different shows right now. And that's all I can tell you because we're just working on the shows.
So, will they be similar to The Ultimate Fighter show on Spike TV, or totally new, different concepts?
No, they'll be different concepts. We're not trying to imitate what the UFC is doing. So, I can say that. And I have never even seen their program. But, we have some original programming that we will be doing.
So, do you already have your cast and are you already filming that?
Not totally. We're working on it. We're in the final stages right now of branding the idea.
Showtime has traditionally been a big outlet for boxing events. Does Showtime's backing of EliteXC say anything about its commitment to boxing?
No, I would think that in the underpinnings it may say, "Boxing beware," but it definitely says to the MMA world, "MMA here we come."
UFC's pay-per-view numbers have reportedly been climbing over the last few years. Under what conditions will EliteXC ever hold pay-per-view events?
We'll pay-per-view when we think that it deems it worthy to the fans of plunking down $39 or $49 for a fight.
Do you foresee that happening this year?
I would hope later this year we'll have one.
It appears that EliteXC is also trying to leverage the power of the Internet. For example, you hired The Apprentice season two winner Kelly Perdew to oversee the online operations of your promotion. You are also streaming undercard fights live online. And you've launched an interactive Web site, ProElite.com. Another interesting idea you've previously mentioned is holding MMA tournaments streamed only on the Internet, where the winner earns the right to fight on TV. Do you have any details on when the first such Internet tournament will be held?
I don't have a date yet, but you are correct -- we are working on that and we're working on taking a traveling show around the United States and moving the winner along until he becomes a brilliant star.
What other plans -- besides the ones I've mentioned -- does EliteXC have to leverage the Internet?
The site launched yesterday -- ProElite.com -- and [MMA supporters] will find that it's very fan-friendly. You can pick out fans and friends, and you can even be a foe -- you can pick out a foe and be someone's foe. And to those that grew up with this generation, I think they'll love the site. And what's on the site is what's going to attract them to keep coming back more and more.
EliteXC fighters
Brandon Vera -- a UFC heavyweight with only one fight left on his contract -- was at your first press conference in December. Are you negotiating with him to join your league?
No, I love Brandon, but I've had no negotiations or discussions with him. He's under contract. When he's out of contract I'd be more than happy to have a discussion with him or with Mark Dion [Vera's manager]. I love Brandon. He's a great fighter and he's a great guy.
Can you tell us what other fighters you are negotiating with?
No. [Laughing]
Currently, I am speaking to other fighters. I just can't at this time [talk about those discussions] because of the sensitivity of it.
These are fighters who have fought in UFC and/or PRIDE?
Some maybe, some not.
How long are the contracts with Gracie, Shamrock and David Loiseau?
They range from three fights to multi-years.
Would you mind if we went fighter by fighter on that?
Go ahead.
Renzo Gracie?
Renzo Gracie I have a one-fight deal with.
Frank Shamrock?
I have a long-term commitment.
Multiple years?
It's a long-term commitment.
David Loiseau?
It's a commitment.
I've read that EliteXC's contracts with fighters are non-exclusive, that is, fighters can fight for other promotions as well as for EliteXC. Why do you think this is a good policy for EliteXC?
Because I think that you need to [sign fighters to non-exclusive contracts] for two reasons. If you are going to stand up and say it's about the fighters, then make it about the fighters. If they can go out and they can get notoriety around the world, why should I stand in the way? If they can fight someone and earn a good payday, I don't believe in standing in the way. I don't think one loss is the end of someone's career. You couldn't do it in boxing. But you sure can do it in the MMA world.
Why should a current UFC or PRIDE fighter consider signing with your promotion?
Because they're with Gary Shaw, the greatest promoter of all time. On a serious note, we're a public company. Obviously our books are open. I believe that we are very, very fighter-friendly. We care about our fighters. We're a group that's dedicated to the sport of MMA. And if I could be with someone -- and I know this is a real pompous statement and I don't mean it that way -- but if I could be with someone, I'd want to be with Gary Shaw.
When you say you are fighter-friendly, can you give specific examples of how you are fighter-friendly?
I fight for my fighters. In boxing, I've been punched, I've been knocked down. I believe in protecting my fighters. I go to war for them. I try to get them the most money that I can. I try to get them the best exposure. I try to make them the biggest stars. I'm honest -- I tell a fighter like it is. If it's past a fighter's prime, I tell the fighter that. I never want to put anybody in harm's way. I care about the health, safety, and welfare of a fighter. So, I'm known as fighter-friendly because if a fighter tells me, "Hey look, if I don't have to come in on Tuesday, I can come in this day" or whatever, I try to do what's best for my fighter. And I think the fighters know that. The boxers that I represent will tell you that. And I keep my word. I told Chad Dawson that I was going to bring him to a world title.
Why should an MMA fan come to your Feb. 10 event, and if they can't come, why should they watch it on Showtime?
I guess you want to come because you've got a Gracie and a Shamrock in the cage. You want to come because you've got Krazy Horse against KJ Noons. You want to come because you've got Silva -- the original Bigfoot that's missing -- [and he's] over three hundred pounds. You've got Gina Carano -- great-looking. You've got some really great fights, some great strikers, a lot of action, fan-friendly. It's going to be an event -- it's not just a fight. Great, great-looking EliteXC girls dancing in the aisles, dancing with the fans, taking pictures, putting them on the Internet -- best-looking chick, best-looking guy, best-looking couple. All kinds of stuff that will be a great experience. That's why someone should come out to the arena.
And if you can't [come to the arena], watch us on the Internet 7 p.m. on ProElite.com. Watch on Showtime.
Boxing vs. Mixed Martial Arts
You have been a boxing promoter for a long time. And you are still currently a boxing promoter. In fact, I understand you are in Florida right now promoting the Feb. 3 fight between Chad Dawson and Thomas Adamek for the WBC light heavyweight title (Editor's note: Dawson won by unanimous decision). As a new member of the MMA community, do you have mixed feelings about promoting a boxing match that is taking place the same night as a huge MMA event -- UFC 67?
No, I don't at all. Because on Feb. 10, when I'm doing our first MMA event -- Destiny: Gracie vs. Shamrock -- I have a fighter [boxer] fighting on HBO for the number one mandatory position in WBC. I have Vivian Harris fighting against Juan Lazcano.
I think they [boxing and MMA] are two different audiences. Yes, you have to -- just by attrition -- lose some people to one and lose some to the other, but I don't think in any great numbers.
In fact, there was no magic with Feb. 3 -- it wasn't, "We're putting on a fight -- a boxing match -- just to go against UFC." As a matter of fact, Showtime goes the first Saturday of every month with boxing. So, the UFC -- and I know they are a sophisticated organization -- they knew that Showtime had a boxing match on that date. Just like they have one on March 3, which is the first Saturday.
So, it's not trying to go against one another. There's room for boxing, there's room for wrestling, and there's room for MMA.
Why did you cross over from boxing and decide to do MMA promotion as well?
I switched over because I saw the great opportunity in the mixed martial arts. I saw that there were regional shows doing 1,500, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 people -- not UFC, just regional shows -- while we were putting on big boxing matches on HBO and Showtime and trying to get 4,000 people in an arena. So, it really made me look at what was going on.
The other big thing was my son Jared, who's 26 -- he goes by the name Skala and he's going to be one of the announcers on the Internet portion of the show -- kept saying to me, "Hey dad, you got to get into MMA. You have to do it." I wasn't listening and he is the demographic [target of MMA] and he said, "Look you're a [Type] A personality. You're going to go to the train station but instead of being the engineer on the locomotive, all you're going to do is watch the caboose leave the train station."
And, it really resonated with me -- it made me take notice.
Boxing over the last few years has appeared to suffer from an image problem in the eyes of -- at least -- casual fans. What has boxing done to hurt itself over the years?
Not put on the very best matches, too many pay-per-views, too many pay-per-views that didn't deserve to be pay-per-views ? so, it's like ripping off the public. Trying to do too many soft fights for their fighters. And I don't get it. You'll hear someone say, "Well, he deserves an easy fight. He fought two hard fights in a row." Hey, that's what he does for a living. Nobody forced him. There are people that get up everyday that are landscapers that work hard. So, what do they say? "I had two hard jobs so tomorrow I'm just going to do some trimming." It doesn't work that way.
What do you think boxing can do to remedy those problems and pick itself up?
It's going to be very difficult because you're losing some boxers now to the MMA -- guys that would want to be boxers. The other fighters -- there are very few gyms around. So, it's hard to go to a gym. The other guys that we used to have that are the big heavyweights are now playing in the NBA and the NFL and have decided to do a different sport.
And it's an older crowd and the demographic is changing and that's what makes the MMA world so exciting is guys taking their girlfriends, guys taking their wives, girls are going with girls for girls night out. There's something about it that's resonating with the fans. And boxing just does not have that.
That leads me to my next question. In your opinion, what is MMA doing right that is attracting so many fans?
That's your best question of the day. And I say that because I'm not sure. There's something right about it. I think I have an idea what it is but I would really need the help of a sociologist and this is my thought process. The 18-35 demographic which everybody says it is -- I think it stretches a little wider and deeper -- but assuming that's the major demographic, they grew up with computers and all these video games. They're used to the violence, they're used to the action, they're used to the quick pace -- they're used to everything about what MMA is. And I think that's part of what they really like about it -- watching almost a street fight. And it's watching, trying to figure out, does the striker beat the ground guy, or the kickboxer, whatever it is.
But, it's a social phenomenon just like YouTube and MySpace. They are new social phenomenons. If you told someone years ago, "You're going to do this thing where people are going to sign on and meet people and get friends" -- it wouldn't resonate, it just wouldn't mean anything. So, there's something going on and that, I think, is the single biggest attraction with MMA.
The other thing it has going for it that boxing doesn't is that in the suburbs, white-collar people are taking their little girls and their little boys to studios, gyms, or schools. So, there are that many more people interested in this and into the self-defense or whatever it is. But, now with the new MMA, it is a phenomenon and I'm not sure that I could put my finger totally on it. I'm in awe as well.
Given your intimate involvement with boxing, what is your general sense of the feeling of the boxing community toward the sport of MMA?
Well, I think that the boxing general public [is] more kind to me about crossing over and doing both than the MMA world has been to me. And that was heartening to the boxing people, [but] a little disheartening that the MMA people would be harsh on me before giving me the opportunity to try to show them that I'm not just a capitalist, but I'm trying to do the right thing for the sport.
The biggest thing is that in boxing I've never gotten -- to this date -- one piece of hate mail saying "Oh, you're leaving boxing, you're leaving your fighters," or whatever. Because I would never leave my fighters -- I have a responsibility to them.
Is the boxing community threatened at all by the rise of MMA?
Oh yeah. Absolutely threatened. Because when Showtime and HBO go in it [MMA], there's only so much money out there so it's got to cannibalize the boxing budget.
Look, I find it interesting that Dana White is always trashing boxing. Boxing is the biggest thing that HBO has. So, it's going to be interesting how Ross Greenberg, the president of HBO, deals with Dana White. There is where you have a real conflict.
In your opinion can MMA and boxing co-exist going forward?
Sure, I think they can co-exist. My hope is that MMA becomes an Olympic sport by 2012. I'd like to add that to my legacy in the sport. I think they absolutely can [co-exist] -- they are both sports, they both have somewhat of a following, some more loyal to one than the other. And I don't see any reason why [they] can't co-exist.
You just mentioned a desire to have MMA as an Olympic sport by 2012, which is something you've made commonly known. Why do you think Olympic recognition is an important goal for MMA?
Because I think it spreads the goodwill. It spreads the sport. It spreads what the sport is about. And just because it's in a cage -- it's not always in a cage -- but when it's in a cage that doesn't mean it's not a sport. I've come to learn about the discipline and how long it takes to really become a seasoned professional MMA fighter. And you have something boxing doesn't have -- I know I'm segueing out for a moment ? and that is in the MMA one loss is not catastrophic like [in] boxing. And there's no harm in submitting. And there's a lot to it. But, I think the fact that if it could be in the Olympics and get that huge international flavor, it would make [MMA] that much bigger and whatever the fan base is now in MMA, it would grow exponentially.
And are you doing anything currently to make this Olympic dream a reality?
Yeah, little by little. We have a great Web site -- ProElite.com -- and we're making it very, very fan-friendly and very, very fighter-friendly. And we're going to start an educational process with it. I believe that no matter what you do, you owe something back to the public. So, we're going to do educational stuff and we're going to put our money where our mouth is.
Along with being a promoter, you spent 28 years as a member of New Jersey State Athletic Commission. How have you used that experience in your new role as an MMA promoter?
Well, like I said early on, I'm a regulator, so the fact is that when you regulate sports -- and we used to regulate even professional wrestling -- you get to meet all the athletes. You get to find out what they like and what they don't like and where they feel threatened or where someone takes advantage of them. So, it gave me those years of the discipline to have an organization that respects the fighters and tries to take care of the fighters and do what's needed. So that you can build stars and you can make it -- as I said before -- about them. You can only do that if they believe in you.
Are you directly involved in having MMA sanctioned in more states?
Well, I haven't yet because truly I've had my hands full. But, there's no one better out there than Marc Ratner, so like in NASCAR, I think I'll draft on Marc.