Meldrick Taylor/Julio Cesar Chavez 1. Was the fight stopped too early or too late?

[elgigante]

Ok everyone remembers the infamous Meldrick Taylor/ Julio Cesar Chavez first bout. Chavez, undefeated and considerd by some the best P4P was getting beaten most of the evening by Meldrick Taylor. Chavez did land some damaging shots on Taylor though through the course of the bout. Long story short Taylor probably would have won the bout on points if Referee Richard Steele had not stopped it with 2 seconds to go in the fight. Now i know that the ref is supposed to have the fighters best interests at heart but how much damage could have occured in two seconds? Chavez was not going to KO him in that amount of time. I still disagree with the stoppage to this day. I realize Taylor is a shell of a man now but i still think he would have made it the final two seconds and held on to win the fight. What do you all think about the stoppage?

[Oliver Klosov]

I think he was still coherent and if he hadn't looked over at Duva who had jumped on the ring apron he would've been allowed to continue.

[CTY]

I dont think it shouldve been stopped. Taylor wouldve lasted two seconds. He wanted to win that fight so bad he wouldve died in the ring before he stopped. Shit, I couldve even lasted 2 seconds against Chavez.

[Mr. Liu]

The odd thing is wether or not he got the "W" would most likely not have stopped Taylor from getting the intelligence beaten out of him eventually, if it was there to begin with. I think he's one of the main reasons there is growing concern for Veteran fighters who don't know when to quit, who hold onto Ghosts of their former greatness to the degree where it chokes you up as a man. It's a tough thing to learn, but in any Sport that's what the ref gets paid to do. When you listen to Steele re-tell the story he explains why he did what he did. It's not his job to consider the career or Justice (or lack thereof) that follows the moments from the time the fight is over. For the time you're in the ring, the Ref is the man in-charge. I think when you speculate too much about wether or not they are competent, you're beginning to ask for Anarchy. If it was up to fighters they'd fight until one man didn't move anymore. It's easy to look back at Steele and say he did the wrong thing, but none of us were in there. When I re-watch the fight he's right. Meldrick was taking shots that resembled getting hit by a truck, right in the face. Hearing those shots even on replay sucked, I can only imagine what it would have been like standing right there.

Now all that aside I will go on-record as saying I feel Steele's stoppage was perfectly reasonable and justifiable, nor have I heard one argument to the contrary that would convince me the decision should be overturned or thought a mistake. Look at all the circumstances. Ref's don't have fight clocks to my knowledge, and go by the same cues the fighters do, which at that precise moment were wholly inaudible thanks to the crowd. When Meldrick fell he looked lifeless. Steele asked him clearly and distinctly TWICE if he was alright, he didn't even so much as nod. He was through. And furthermore I think Steele had ever reason to feel that another hard shot might have even possibly killed Meldrick. That fight is just horrifying to watch if you pay close attention to what Chavez was accomplishing.

I think Steele did his job well and I cannot honestly say I would not have made the same decision. Of all the stoppages that are controversial, I don't really think this was one of them. Had I been Steele I would have responded the same way:

"Oh really? There were only 2 seconds left? Well that sucks for him but I felt enough was enough and that's what they pay me for."

[Tam-Tam]

Stoppage was fine.

Certainly wasn't stopped too early though.

[Oliver Klosov]

Look at all the circumstances. Ref's don't have fight clocks to my knowledge, and go by the same cues the fighters do, which at that precise moment were wholly inaudible thanks to the crowd.

Not true, In that fight there were Red lights at the top of each corner that flashed when they were inside Ten seconds. I'm not saying this would change your opinion or not, but Steele would definately have known they were under 10 seconds.

When Meldrick fell he looked lifeless. Steele asked him clearly and distinctly TWICE if he was alright, he didn't even so much as nod. He was through.

I disagree. Duva had jumped on the apron and he was distracted and looked at him rather than answering Steele.


And furthermore I think Steele had ever reason to feel that another hard shot might have even possibly killed Meldrick. That fight is just horrifying to watch if you pay close attention to what Chavez was accomplishing.

I think Steele did his job well and I cannot honestly say I would not have made the same decision. Of all the stoppages that are controversial, I don't really think this was one of them. Had I been Steele I would have responded the same way:

"Oh really? There were only 2 seconds left? Well that sucks for him but I felt enough was enough and that's what they pay me for."

very possible.

[Tam-Tam]

I disagree. Duva had jumped on the apron and he was distracted and looked at him rather than answering Steele.
And you think that is a sign of coherance? If yoyu don't answer the ref, you're fucked. Any English speaking non-retard, knows this.

[elgigante]

One thing that made me bring this up is watching the Clay Bey/Bryant fight last week on FNF. Clay Bey ate like fifteen or so shots in a row that bounced his head back and didnt respond in kind and the ref let it go. I guess it is a referee by referee basis in terms of stoppage but Steele did try to do the right thing with his call.

[KD=KO]

When a referee asks you, "Are you alright?" you best answer his question and forget about your meathead cornerman for that short duration. While I do believe that he was winning of the fight and robbed of his glory, it was his own fault. It pains me to see what has happened to Meldrick Taylor, he has some of the worst chronic brain damage that I have ever seen - he is barely coherent.

[Mr. Liu]

Not true, In that fight there were Red lights at the top of each corner that flashed when they were inside Ten seconds. I'm not saying this would change your opinion or not, but Steele would definately have known they were under 10 seconds.

Did you see the moment in-question? Meldrick was hurt, Steele was looking DEEP into his eyes for any sign of life, Duva was on the apron shouting, crowd was shouting on their feet, Chavez's corner was shouting, and he was supposed to notice a flashing light bulb? Come now. I'm sure under pressure most of us here have missed much bigger details than a flashing red light.

[Oliver Klosov]

Did you see the moment in-question? Meldrick was hurt, Steele was looking DEEP into his eyes for any sign of life, Duva was on the apron shouting, crowd was shouting on their feet, Chavez's corner was shouting, and he was supposed to notice a flashing light bulb? Come now. I'm sure under pressure most of us here have missed much bigger details than a flashing red light.

He had plenty of time before that to see the lights flashing.

[Tam-Tam]

He was too busy watching Taylor get his ass handed too him and no, the light bulb only came on while Steele was administering the count to Taylor....while Meldrick was dying in the ring.

[Oliver Klosov]

He was too busy watching Taylor get his ass handed too him and no, the light bulb only came on while Steele was administering the count to Taylor....while Meldrick was dying in the ring.

I haven't seen it in a while, but I think you are wrong on this point.

[Hitman]

considering the rules that were in effect for that fight, i think that the fight should have been allowed to continue. back then you could be saved by the bell in the final round of the fight. the big red light beacon was on, signalling that there was ten seconds left in the round- and therefore Taylor couldn't in any way, shape or form, lose the fight.

i just look at it this way- if steele would have let the fight continue, who on earth would have criticized his decision at all? in recent comparisons- i would have been quite angry if Tony Weeks had let Castillo get his head bashed in any more than he did against Corrales.

i understand the other side of the arguement, but i think it's very relevent that taylor couldnt possibly lose the fight.

Hitman

[Tam-Tam]

But Steele has no idea about that. He's not scoring or judging.

I think a ref has to call it as he see's it. If a guy is done, I want him to pull them out. If he's ok, let him fight on. In round 1, or round 12. When we start giving them extra responsibilities, you run the risk of the official having his mind confused over what to do.

I want the official to protect the fighters and enforce the rules. Thats all.

[Hitman]

but Steele knew there was less than ten seconds left. if you didn't want taylor to sustain any more punishment.... well he wasn't going to. the rules were in place as such that taylor could have gotten dropped again, been nearly unconcsious and the bell rings he still wins.

the ref's first job is to protect the fighters, true... but the way a fight is going has a lot to do with how the ref makes a call, those extra responsibilites are inherent in the job. if a guy is getting his ass whipped, the fighter may show all necessary abilities, bearings, awareness, etc. that is officially required to be able to continue fighting... but a ref will, and should, step in due to the circumstances surrounding the fight (if he clearly can't win). fighter's reputations have a bearing on the outcome too... steele knows that- he stepped in to save ruddock when he staggered to the ropes because it was MIKE TYSON who was coming in to pounce on him. taylor may not have have shown everything to its full extent, but what was clear is that there was no way for him to lose.

sorry to play the "what if" game.... but just imagine for a sec if steele had let the fight go on, and taylor won the fight like imo he should have... would you or anyone be complaining that "taylor clearly shouldnt have been allowed to keep going"?

Hitman

[Mr. Liu]

but Steele knew there was less than ten seconds left. if you didn't want taylor to sustain any more punishment.... well he wasn't going to. the rules were in place as such that taylor could have gotten dropped again, been nearly unconcsious and the bell rings he still wins.

I like your assumption about what Steele knew. He didn't "know" there were less than ten seconds left. That's pure speculation and is the reason I'm sure people think he was in King's pocket. When in-fact, the ONLY reason anyone in here "knows" the red light was flashing is because you watched the Legendary Nights special on it and that image of them SHOWING the light with the rest of the screen shaded so it was MORE obvious is burned into your mind. And if you re-watch that moment, LOOK at Steele, he's looking at Meldrick, not the light, and asking "are you okay?"

When you don't answer that, and again a SECOND time, you're done.

If you want to play the "what if" game, I think the proper "what if" to ask would be asking "what if Meldrick had even nodded or raised a glove."

He was given every chance to show he could continue, and didn't. Steele is not to blame for that shortcoming, neither is Duva.

Or how about we ask a "what if" question that sides with Steele. What if his gut instinct came true and in the last 2 seconds Chavez lands a single punch that kills Taylor. What then? He shoulders that responsibility? Everyone would be singing a much different tune then. The "he should have stopped that fight even if there was only 2 seconds left" tune.

[Hitman]

if you were around watching boxing at the time, you would know that the red light beacon was there. the only legendary nights thing i have seen is leonard-hagler.... oh, and tito-dlh (but i don;t like to remember that i ever saw that fight, or anything to do with it). maybe the only reason that YOU know about it is because of legendary nights, but don;t go ASSuming that about everyone else.

steele knew the lights were there, he knew what the meant, he knew they were on.

as for chavez landing a final punch and killing taylor, this particular what if game would require chavez to gain super-speed powers to get across the ring in time to land a great punch. the other situation on the other hand is very reasonable.

Hitman

[Tam-Tam]

When did Steele say he knew how long there was left?

[ramelman]

Now all that aside I will go on-record as saying I feel Steele's stoppage was perfectly reasonable and justifiable, nor have I heard one argument to the contrary that would convince me the decision should be overturned or thought a mistake. Look at all the circumstances. Ref's don't have fight clocks to my knowledge, and go by the same cues the fighters do, which at that precise moment were wholly inaudible thanks to the crowd. When Meldrick fell he looked lifeless. Steele asked him clearly and distinctly TWICE if he was alright, he didn't even so much as nod. He was through. And furthermore I think Steele had ever reason to feel that another hard shot might have even possibly killed Meldrick. That fight is just horrifying to watch if you pay close attention to what Chavez was accomplishing.

you're exactly right, man. that encapsulates what i think of the ref's decision. great job by steele. it's not his job to get distracted by gauging who was ahead in the fight, or how many damaging punches taylor may or may not absorb in what little seconds are left. bottomline: steele asked a simple question to determine the fighter's coherency, and taylor could not give him a straight answer. excellent decision making! :)

[Mr. Liu]

as for chavez landing a final punch and killing taylor, this particular what if game would require chavez to gain super-speed powers to get across the ring in time to land a great punch. the other situation on the other hand is very reasonable.

No. You do realize there are a couple of 1 and 2 second KO's on record right? It really doesn't take two full seconds to get across the ring, throw, and land a bomb.

In terms of Steele, again you're speculating on the man's knowledge when it's plainly obvious on the tape he wasn't focused on the light-bulb. This shit happens. I'm not saying it's entirely right, but it's more reasonable for him to base a stoppage on the condition of the fighter, not a flashing bulb that he didn't even see at the time in-question. Sure he was conscious of the EXISTENCE of the bulb, absolutely. I'm conscious of my wrist-watch's existence, doesn't mean I always think to look at it whenever time crosses my mind.

[Hitman]

yes i do think the referee was concsious of the light bulb, and i think he should be concsious of it when you can be saved by the bell in the final round of a fight

Hitman

[Mr. Liu]

It's very easy to say that from outside the scope of first-hand experience is what I'm getting at.

[Hitman]

fair enough... i see what you're saying- i guess we just agree to disagree on the stoppage

[Mr. Liu]

Hindsight is always like that man. But as a man I can see Steele having to learn to stick up for that decision, and the fact of the matter is just that there was a more compelling reason for him to render that decision than there were circumstancial reasons for him not to. That reason was Meldrick Taylor.

[Hitman]

well again, i disagree... and hindsight has nothing to do with it- i have had this opinion since the fight was stopped

[Alf]

i believe it was a good stoppage but of course controversial. but look at it like this, if it were at any other point in the fight it would have been stopped without question. taylor's legs were gone and its possible he could have been hurt badly in those 2 seconds, it's alot more likely than Chavez

[Shaolin Bushido]

Shouldn't have been stopped.

[Tam-Tam]

Virgil Hill was better tha Ezzard Charles, cos he was a champion.

[Shaolin Bushido]

If yoyu don't answer the ref, you're fucked. Any English speaking non-retard, knows this.
True. That must be why Kostya Tszyu acted dumbfounded by the ref's question when it was posed to him against Hatton.

[Shaolin Bushido]

Steele has both good and bad calls he's made in fights as anyone would with his hundred and some odd championship fights called. He, like any of us deserves to have a certain amount of bad calls.

That was just one of em. He over-reacted. Steele's little chicken heart was beating like a jackhammer and his adrenaline was spiking. Taylor went down ... he got back up. Why? You'd think the fact he got up would have meant something like ... he wasn't ko'ed, but NOOOO, the silly ass ref waves it off. KO'ed by the fucking REF! Once he wiped the gloves and had em step back, before they could even engage ... ding! ... the fights over.

And if they had come together, who's to say WHO gets the one punch ko, as unlikely as that would have been? I've yet to see anyone who felt Meldrick hadn't dealt some punishment himself; indeed many had him winning the fight.

And besides, the ref's job isn't to prevent ko's, cause if it is he's really done a shitty job and thank God for that!

I like ko's.

[Tam-Tam]

LOL, terrible post.

[Shaolin Bushido]

LOL, terrible post.
Richard Steele KO12. Still pretty, not a mark on him.

[Kamehameha]

i have the fight, i might put it up in multimedia section.

has japanese commentary though........