BK Jan / Feb 2008 Rankings discussion

[DCBooks]

Up on the front page, the newest rankings from the dive bar of MMA forums.

Here they are again for your convenience-

Heavyweight
1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Randy Couture
3. Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera
4. Tim Sylvia
5. Josh Barnett
6. Gabriel Gonzaga
7. Andre Arlovski
8. Cheick Kongo
9. Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic
10. Fabricio Werdum

Light Heavyweight
1. Quniton "Rampage" Jackson
2. Lyoto Machida
3. Forrest Griffin
4. Dan Henderson
5. Keith Jardine
6. Chuck Liddell
7. Mauricio Shogun Rua
8. Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou
9. Wanderlei Silva
10. Rashad Evans

Middleweight
1. Anderson Silva
2. Paulo Filho
3. Rich Franklin
4. Yushin Okami
5. Robbie Lawler
6. Nate Marquardt
7. Frank Trigg
8. Kazuo Misaki
9. Yoshihiro Akiyama
10. Jorge Santiago

Welterweight
1. Georges St Pierre
2. Jon Fitch
3. Matt Hughes
4. Matt Serra
5. Karo Parisyan
6. Josh Koscheck
7. Jake Shields
8. Diego Sanchez
9. Carlos Condit
10. Yoshiyuki Yoshida

Lightweight
1. Takanori Gomi
2. Mitsuhiro Ishida
3. Gesias "JZ" Calvancante
4. Gilbert Melendez
5. Tatsuya Kawajiri
6. Shinya Aoki
7. Frankie Edgar
8. Vitor "Shaolin" Ribeiro
9. Joe Stevenson
10. Sean Sherk

Featherweight
1. Akitoshi Tamura
2. Urijah Faber
3. Takeshi Inoue
4. HiroYuki Takaya
5. Jeff Curran
6. Antonio Carvalho
7. Masakazu Imanari
8. Yoshiro Maeda
9. Jong Man Kim
10. Hatsu Hioki

Check out the how's and whys brought to you by OB Juan and the rankings council.

http://www.bloodyknux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31696

[Betro]

when were we supposed to send in our rankings?

[OB Juan]

Thanks to: Marshall GK Zhukov, Kilroy, Left Hook, The Punk, Chivo, ilostmydog, dragomort, brainuse, DC Books, Bishop, OB Juan

[OB Juan]

Originally Posted by Betro

when were we supposed to send in our rankings?

You weren't. After the last couple of messes we decided to set up a council for rankings purposes. Unfortunately not everybody appears to be capable of following guidelines or assembling unbiased ranks.

[Betro]

feels left out I like the rankings so far after a quick scan.

[Bev]

Your lightweight rankings are laughable. Seriously. Not even worth discussing.

[OB Juan]

Originally Posted by Bev

Your lightweight rankings are laughable. Seriously. Not even worth discussing.

Because BJ Penn isn't #1?

[DCBooks]

Originally Posted by OB Juan

Because BJ Penn isn't #1?

Yeah, why isn't he #1 in every weight class? Doesn't choking out Jens Pulver mean anything anymore?

[Left Hook]

Again much love for Juan's hard work.

Originally Posted by OB Juan

Because BJ Penn isn't #1?

Oh what happens if BJ doesn't beat Joe. Bev will explode.

[Left Hook]

Originally Posted by Bev

Your lightweight rankings are laughable. Seriously. Not even worth discussing.

I think under the circumstances they are the best possible. We were left with so many problems stemming from inactivity, lack of competition and the fact that Aoki really hasn't done much at the weight.

[ilostmydog]

This is directly taken off my list:

LW
1. BJ Penn
2. BJ Penn
3. BJ Penn
4. BJ Penn
5. BJ Penn

[brainuse]

Bev, post your LW rankings.

[brainuse]

I'm surprised, but honestly, I'm pretty happy with the rankings.

Only thing that really bothers me is Griffin so high and two slots over Jardine.

[Whining Pussy]

rankings are more elusive than ever before for me. there was a time in this sport where the talent pool was so shallow that the results of the few and far between important matches resulting rank were almost without much contention. i have no strong opinion about who ranks where these days, with token exceptions only.. like Anderson Silva.

i don't agree that Fedor should still hold top rank, however. and there are a couple other ideas here that shock my sensibility but aside from Fedor, my opinion isn't strong enough to raise a serious contention. Fedor just doesn't fight anybody, that's my gripe. i had Couture over him nearly a year ago.

[brainuse]

Understandable and there are a lot of guys who rank Couture at 1. I am not one of them, but it was a very very close decision for me.

[KD=KO]

Originally Posted by OB Juan

Thanks to: Marshall GK Zhukov, Kilroy, Left Hook, The Punk, Chivo, ilostmydog, dragomort, brainuse, DC Books, Bishop, OB Juan

Originally Posted by OB Juan

You weren't. After the last couple of messes we decided to set up a council for rankings purposes. Unfortunately not everybody appears to be capable of following guidelines or assembling unbiased ranks.

LOL

[Left Hook]

Originally Posted by brainuse

I'm surprised, but honestly, I'm pretty happy with the rankings.

Only thing that really bothers me is Griffin so high and two slots over Jardine.

I agree, but many saw it as the win over Shogun was far more impressive at the time in comparison with Jardine's over both Griffin and Liddell and I really cannot disagree with that. Griffin wasn't even a rankings threat when Jardine beat him and Liddell has already been KO'ed.

Originally Posted by KD=KO

LOL

And such reactions seem to support Juan's point.

[KD=KO]

Originally Posted by Left Hook

And such reactions seem to support Juan's point.

You're an idiot. First off, if you're going to label something 'BK Jan 2008 Rankings,' it should be a conpendium of more than 8 people from BK's rankings, not just a self appointed group of self proclaimed knowitalls. I don't care if you guys want to humor yourselves, but call it something like, '8 people's opinions of the current rankings.' Second, I know more about MMA than you.

[dragomort]

Originally Posted by KD=KO

You're an idiot. First off, if you're going to label something 'BK Jan 2008 Rankings,' it should be a conpendium of more than 8 people from BK's rankings, not just a self appointed group of self proclaimed knowitalls. I don't care if you guys want to humor yourselves, but call it something like, '8 people's opinions of the current rankings.' Second, I know more about MMA than you.

I believe you just disqualified yourself

[KD=KO]

Originally Posted by dragomort

I believe you just disqualified yourself

hey, i'm not the biggest insider, but i'm better than some.


and it doesn't surprise me who's supporting certain sides of this issue. your guys' list isn't bk's rankings, simple as that.

[chuck]

the WW division at last makes some sense to me though Serra is still ranked too high.

With the gloves we have in MMA, quick kos are very possible but I just dont think we can take this as the complete marker of the fight. Serra's flash ko means very little to me. GSP has fought and dominated every WW he has come across except BJ Penn. Hughes and Fitch is the same. Serra isnt and only got the fight as part of a reality TV show. sure GSP should have won but he got caught. never was Serra #1. we have to look at how dominant fighters are and Serra scraps through.

Thats why now Nog can almost never be ranked above Fedor or Liddell over Jackson. we have seen both guys at their peaks get dominated by their opponents. The opposite is for Sokodoujou. he is talented but raw and flash kos dont amount to too much. he got schooled by Machida. he was out of his depth. Lil Nog and Arona wouldnt have been. I know its MMaths but we have to look at how wins come about and not just the records.

[dragomort]

Originally Posted by KD=KO

hey, i'm not the biggest insider, but i'm better than some.


and it doesn't surprise me who's supporting certain sides of this issue. your guys' list isn't bk's rankings, simple as that.

I'm with you in wishing it was open, but it's not like anyone that participated had the power to put themselves up for eligibility to do so because they felt they 'know everything about MMA'. I believe it was a direct response to seeing the all of 15 or so entries for the last ranking set and then having 20 or so people bitching about the exact same problem of it not representing their perspectives. So, they took random people that seemed interested and threw them in together. Hell, there was talk of doing it before the last set of them because of lack of support from everyone to where one bad entry could screw everything over and I think there was talk about it in the one before that. http://www.bloodyknux.com/forum/show...6&postcount=13

[KD=KO]

Originally Posted by Left Hook

I think under the circumstances they are the best possible. We were left with so many problems stemming from inactivity, lack of competition and the fact that Aoki really hasn't done much at the weight.

Originally Posted by dragomort

I'm with you in wishing it was open, but it's not like anyone that participated had the power to put themselves up for eligibility to do so because they felt they 'know everything about MMA'. I believe it was a direct response to seeing the all of 15 or so entries for the last ranking set and then having 20 or so people bitching about the exact same problem of it not representing their perspectives. So, they took random people that seemed interested and threw them in together. Hell, there was talk of doing it before the last set of them because of lack of support from everyone to where one bad entry could screw everything over and I think there was talk about it in the one before that. http://www.bloodyknux.com/forum/show...6&postcount=13

Originally Posted by OB Juan

If these rankings end up looking like complete shite then it will probably be the last time we do them this way and we will resort to a committee in the future. I'm trying to avoid that.

From that post. Who's the one that ultimately decides if they look like 'complete shite?' Wouldn't that be a tad biased? I'm confident in the folks around here.

Seriously, 8 people don't make up the site. Gotta give people like OB credit since he's taking the time to put together all this, I mean, there's a lot of people that do stuff, so i'm not trying to take away from that, but this site was put together by everyone contributing. I think the rankings should reflect that.

[Chivo]

Look at the track record the last few times it was open to everyone. These eight plus 7 more submitted. So by your reckoning, only half the site participated this time as opposed to the last.




And generalizing us as "self proclaimed know it alls" is way off at the least. There was alot of thought put into these and the discussions NEVER resorted to e-pwning like it is here.

Just saying, OB Juan put a lot into this and I appreciate it.

[DCBooks]

Originally Posted by KD=KO

a self appointed group of self proclaimed knowitalls.

The "knowitalls" didn't proclaim anything, The folks who participated were chosen by others based on earlier participation, a diversity of knowledge, and ability to debate the topic without getting their feathers ruffled.

[OB Juan]

Originally Posted by KD=KO

From that post. Who's the one that ultimately decides if they look like 'complete shite?' Wouldn't that be a tad biased? I'm confident in the folks around here.

Seriously, 8 people don't make up the site. Gotta give people like OB credit since he's taking the time to put together all this, I mean, there's a lot of people that do stuff, so i'm not trying to take away from that, but this site was put together by everyone contributing. I think the rankings should reflect that.

Basically only people who took time to contribute last fall were considered. If you feel left out now maybe you should have put forth the effort last time. Sorry y'all. Mostly it's about agreeing on a set of guidelines and following them without constant bitching. It's surprising how many people are incapable of that. We had a quite pleasant and cordial experience doing all this completely drama free until now that we've posted them.

And it's not really that hard to determine complete shit. Things like Rothwell at 6 with no Barnett or Mirko, Penn at 1 LW and Tito at 5, no Wanderlei after a loss to Hendo (3 people), Rashad at 4, Kampmann at 4, Penn at 5 WW, no Gomi or Kawajiri.... and remember this is all as of like last September. It's not hard to figure out people w/ questionable rankings.

And for the record there was 11 participants, not 8. Last time we had 15. DerUber was also invited but he's been AWOL.

[Kilroy]

Originally Posted by Bev

Your lightweight rankings are laughable. Seriously. Not even worth discussing.

Oh, and posts like this pretty much sums up why they chose to change the way they were done.

I have my objections as well with the way I see things but overall it looks like a decent compromise.

[Global Honored]

I think Bev should set up a counter-council to go against the official BK Ranking organization. One that specifically decides based on personal prefence, unabashed bias and overall uncompromising fandom. Then it is on! Who will truly be #1?!?

[Bev]

If you guys recall, I did not rank BJ number one last time. In fact, I respected the titles and voted my most hated fighter Randy Couture number one at Heavyweight. I also had Machida ranked at number two at that point, and am the person OB used as the example of "bad voting" when I ranked Tito at number five. In the past year he has a win over Forrest and a draw with Rashad (due to a point deduction). Look up. Forrest is number 3 (ahead of a guy that recently KO'd him) and Rashad is number 10. Tito is nowhere to be found.

Even by your previous "records only" criteria, the LHW rankings are bullshit. How is a guy that's 3-2 in his last fights (Griffin) ahead of someone that's 3-2 (Jardine) with wins over Forrest and Liddell? Or someone that is 3-1-1 (Tito) with wins over Forrest and number 10 Rashad?

You call me biased?

GTFO

[Chivo]

Originally Posted by Bev

Even by your previous "records only" criteria, the LHW rankings are bullshit. How is a guy that's 3-2 in his last fights (Griffin) ahead of someone that's 3-2 (Jardine) with wins over Forrest and Liddell? Or someone that is 3-1-1 (Tito) with wins over Forrest and number 10 Rashad?

You call me biased?

GTFO

Let's look at the past 12 months.

Tito 0-1-1 (Best win over... oh nevermind.)

Draw Rashad Evans 7/7/2007
Loss Chuck Liddell 12/30/2006


Griffin 2-1 (Best win, #2 Shogun at the time)

Win Mauricio Rua 9/22/2007
Win Hector Ramirez 6/16/2007
Loss Keith Jardine 12/30/2006


Jardine 2-1 (Best win Chuck after Chuck's slight drop)

Win Chuck Liddell 9/22/2007
Loss Houston Alexander 5/26/2007
Win Forrest Griffin 12/30/2006

I can see a small case being made for Jardine over Griffin, but Tito is outside looking in while hoping for more Shamrock's to fight.