Terroist threats, boycotts, demonstrations etc against Denmark and Norway

[Mad Processor]

After a big Danish newspaper and a small christian Norwegian paper decided to print pictures showing the Islamic prophet Muhammed the shit has hit the fan.

Muslims are seemingly very upset over this and big demonstrations have followed. In Gaza, Palestinians burned Norwegian and Danish flags, the editors of the respective magazines got death threats and muslims are encouraging a world wide boycott of Danish and Norwegian food and goods.

Here, the debate rage on. We have a very strong free speech law (like the one in the US), so noone will be charged with anything, but politicians and others have said printing the pictures was nonetheless in bad taste.

You can read more starting with this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4666298.stm

It also links to further articles on the issue.

Now, to me, this is an interesting debate. On one hand, we free speech. On the other hand, we have people who are insulted. BUT, comedians and regular people say stuff everyday that insults someone. Neo-nazi groups in Scandinavia have been protesting jews for ages and we hardly lift an eyebrow.

I personally find it laughable, when the Iranian president said he wanted to eradicate Israel, not a single muslim country appeared to protest or really do anything to show contempt for the speech, but a drawing of their prophet is a "declaration of war", that it suddenly is appropriate to blow yourself up at a shopping mall in Copenhagen? I find the flag burning insulting. The christian paper who printed the pictures had a wopping 5.400 copies sold last year. And every Norwegian is responsible for this? Would I ever ban flag burning? Hell no, it's another expression that people should be allowed to execute at their will. (I would like to see the reaction if I, after another Palestinian blowing himself on a bus in Israel, walked downtown with a Palestinian flag, set fire to it and started screaming "DEATH TO PALESTINE". )

One imam even managed to say that "free speech where you can say anything you want is totalitarian".

What are your thoughts on this? This is NOT a racial debate, rather a debate on freedom of speech, where to draw the line and what an effect it has on multicultural societies. What questions I want answered are:
Do you think these kinds of things shouldn't be protected by free speech, do you simply think it was in bad taste, or do you think the Islamic community should just "suck it up"?
Where do you see the line being drawn when it comes to free speech?

[Zigga-Zagga]

Islam as a subject is so flammable.

Over the history comedy (weather it's the Daily Show in US or the newspaper comics dissing Germany in WWI) has been often the only way to cricize things. A certain liberty-trough-humour has allways been more acceptable, and I don't mind it that much.

Anyhow, don't Palestinians really have more important things to worry about.

[Mad Processor]

On that note I should probably add that the pictures had indeed a comedic value. One of them featured suicide bombers coming to heaven only to find St. Peter standing there saying "stop, stop, we're all out of virgins". None of that was complained about, the issue was that they dared make drawings of Muhammed himself, which is allegedly illegal under Islamic law.

[Zigga-Zagga]

One would think that the drawer simply did not know of such thing that Mouhammed was not to be pictured.

The problem is that Danmark is part of EU, so this one could really escalade.

[Mad Processor]

He (they?) knew and the Norwegian paper printed it after the Danish (Jyllands posten btw) printed it.

A pretty pathetic note: The editor in chief for the Norwegian magazine has defended himself with freedom of speech, yet he himself has said that he would never print a picture disrespecting Jesus, and he was very strongly opposing a theater play that featured god as a smoking, cursing bastard. Guess to some people it doesn't work both ways.

[Zigga-Zagga]

Well that's just fucked up, gives more an idea of a planned instigation.

[Falero]

Danish are fucking rabid about muslims, the whole domestic debate is borderline open racist. That being said, it´s an incredibly strong reaction from the arab world but the freedom of speech should be defended, not excused. Problem is that a lot of danes, according to media, is taking this shit out on danish muslims.
Funny thing: Apparently sweden got threatened by one of the arab leaders as well. They´re not accurate in their shitslinging but it´s fun to be on the recieving end of that stuff for once. Remember how many people were going on about the whole middleeast and all the peeps there after 9/11? Same generalisations, the other way.

[Mad Processor]

Originally Posted by Falero

Danish are fucking rabid about muslims, the whole domestic debate is borderline open racist. That being said, it?s an incredibly strong reaction from the arab world but the freedom of speech should be defended, not excused. Problem is that a lot of danes, according to media, is taking this shit out on danish muslims.
Funny thing: Apparently sweden got threatened by one of the arab leaders as well. They?re not accurate in their shitslinging but it?s fun to be on the recieving end of that stuff for once. Remember how many people were going on about the whole middleeast and all the peeps there after 9/11? Same generalisations, the other way.

Yeah I read that Sweden got some shit. They probably got the Scandinavian countries confused and thought Norway was the capital of Sweden, tends to happen a lot.

Many Danes are indeed rather racist against muslims, there have been numerous clashes between Danish right wing extremists and the Somalian community.

How are the reactions to this in Sweden? I listen to "Ekud" or however it is spelled every once in a while, but I haven't really managed to pick up on any debate there.

[Falero]

Originally Posted by Mad Processor

Yeah I read that Sweden got some shit. They probably got the Scandinavian countries confused and thought Norway was the capital of Sweden, tends to happen a lot.

Many Danes are indeed rather racist against muslims, there have been numerous clashes between Danish right wing extremists and the Somalian community.

How are the reactions to this in Sweden? I listen to "Ekud" or however it is spelled every once in a while, but I haven't really managed to pick up on any debate there.

I think most swedes are just giving it a slight nod, people seem surprisingly unaffected. Some of the more rightwing swedes are spouting off the usual "oh those stupid muslims" and some people are spouting off "oh those stupid danes".

I think the general context is that people think the Danes went quite far, but that the muslim boycotts are way overboard. People don?t get how offense this really is, and if they do they instead at times lacks compassion for the muslim sake.
Most peeps would probably say that the danes should do stupid shit like this, but at the same time if push comes to push they shouldn?t give in their liberties for the sake of economics.

The danish debate about immigration is far more hasher than the swedish and I think a lot of swedes shun their ill attitude. But there are also a lot of people who welcome it.

[REDNOZE300]

Originally Posted by Mad Processor

On that note I should probably add that the pictures had indeed a comedic value. One of them featured suicide bombers coming to heaven only to find St. Peter standing there saying "stop, stop, we're all out of virgins". None of that was complained about, the issue was that they dared make drawings of Muhammed himself, which is allegedly illegal under Islamic law.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA we're out of virgins HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

a cupple of years ago some swedish painter ( artist ) made some drawings out of Jesus and his pupils as Faggots . the day after there was a huge demonstration . all of the people that showed up there were from Lebanon and Syria . Catholics and orthodox Christians side by side throwing rocks at the Bitch and she was like wtf????? i was rofl when they showed her face on the tv and she was like i have NO idea why people are so mad .

some people ( specialy people from the middle east ) just dont like it when you fuck around with their belifs , period!

[Zigga-Zagga]

Ah great, heard just from the radio that the locals in Iraq have declared an some sort of Jihad-light on the local Danish soldiers. Nice to see that they aren't stereotyping all the Danish to the same.

[DaPunisher]

Originally Posted by Mad Processor

After a big Danish newspaper and a small christian Norwegian paper decided to print pictures showing the Islamic prophet Muhammed the shit has hit the fan.

Muslims are seemingly very upset over this and big demonstrations have followed. In Gaza, Palestinians burned Norwegian and Danish flags, the editors of the respective magazines got death threats and muslims are encouraging a world wide boycott of Danish and Norwegian food and goods.

Here, the debate rage on. We have a very strong free speech law (like the one in the US), so noone will be charged with anything, but politicians and others have said printing the pictures was nonetheless in bad taste.

You can read more starting with this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4666298.stm

It also links to further articles on the issue.

Now, to me, this is an interesting debate. On one hand, we free speech. On the other hand, we have people who are insulted. BUT, comedians and regular people say stuff everyday that insults someone. Neo-nazi groups in Scandinavia have been protesting jews for ages and we hardly lift an eyebrow.

I personally find it laughable, when the Iranian president said he wanted to eradicate Israel, not a single muslim country appeared to protest or really do anything to show contempt for the speech, but a drawing of their prophet is a "declaration of war", that it suddenly is appropriate to blow yourself up at a shopping mall in Copenhagen? I find the flag burning insulting. The christian paper who printed the pictures had a wopping 5.400 copies sold last year. And every Norwegian is responsible for this? Would I ever ban flag burning? Hell no, it's another expression that people should be allowed to execute at their will. (I would like to see the reaction if I, after another Palestinian blowing himself on a bus in Israel, walked downtown with a Palestinian flag, set fire to it and started screaming "DEATH TO PALESTINE". )

One imam even managed to say that "free speech where you can say anything you want is totalitarian".

What are your thoughts on this? This is NOT a racial debate, rather a debate on freedom of speech, where to draw the line and what an effect it has on multicultural societies. What questions I want answered are:
Do you think these kinds of things shouldn't be protected by free speech, do you simply think it was in bad taste, or do you think the Islamic community should just "suck it up"?
Where do you see the line being drawn when it comes to free speech?

welcome to america

[Malibu]

Welcome aboard, guys. You're nobody until the Middle East hates you.

[Mad Processor]

Funny little thing, one of the pictures was of muhammed wearing a turban drawn as a bomb. Now, to refute that they are violent terrorists they are threatening to bomb several places in Europe and kill all Norwegian, Danish, French and German residents in Gaza.

Way to gain support guys, you fucking retards.

[Dewey's Diva]

I think it would be an understatement to say Muslims have no sense of humor... or maybe even a misstatement. I think (and I hope this makes sense) those devoted to Islam are too reverent regarding their own beliefs to function in the larger world, one that is not universally spiritual or reverent about anything. It's hard to wrap my brain around not being able to depict the Prophet Muhammed because, as a Christian, depictions of Christ, both reverent and irreverent, are everywhere.

sm-buddy-christ.jpg

kanyewest.jpg

While both are not traditional or reverent, they don't offend me. There is much about Islam that I will never, ever understand.

[DaPunisher]

Originally Posted by Rachel

I think it would be an understatement to say Muslims have no sense of humor... or maybe even a misstatement. I think (and I hope this makes sense) those devoted to Islam are too reverent regarding their own beliefs to function in the larger world, one that is not universally spiritual or reverent about anything. It's hard to wrap my brain around not being able to depict the Prophet Muhammed because, as a Christian, depictions of Christ, both reverent and irreverent, are everywhere.

Attachment 1677

Attachment 1678

While both are not traditional or reverent, they don't offend me. There is much about Islam that I will never, ever understand.

islam is like the kid in school whose an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole, until they lighten up and realize if your nice to people theyll be nice back.

[IX Equilibrium]

Originally Posted by Mad Processor

Funny little thing, one of the pictures was of muhammed wearing a turban drawn as a bomb. Now, to refute that they are violent terrorists they are threatening to bomb several places in Europe and kill all Norwegian, Danish, French and German residents in Gaza.

Way to gain support guys, you fucking retards.

Couldn't have put it better.

[Maz_Boxe]

will it blow over? yes
will it blow over tommrow? no
next week? possibly
will cartoons mocking other religions be released by the muslims? hope so, racism is funny shit

[jiddu]

Muslims need to get bombed more since they have time to worry about danish newspapers

[derubermensch]

Wow. Just Wow. How stupid could those scandinavians be? They know full well what it meant to draw a picture, one intended for comedic effect at that, of the prophet Mohammed and they do it anyway. And then they wonder why people are freaking the fuck out? I can't put into words how stupid those newspapers are.

Rachel: Making an image of Christ doesn't have anywhere near the same ramifications as making an image of Mohammed. No where in the bible does it say "Don't make an image of Jesus." I'm sure you might respond with something to the effect of "Well people make images of God and it says you can't do that in the bible", which leads me to my point since the background for the statement is the dominance of secularism in the West...

All: You can't go applying your Western standards of liberality and what not to people who don't buy into the same bullshit as you. A defense of Free fucking speech is moot at the point at which there is a cultural clash at play. You don't smoke in an African tribe's sacred cave with your friends and then when they piss on you about it, you say I have the freedom to goddamn assembly. It is moronic to think so.

[Mad Processor]

Originally Posted by derUbermensch

Wow. Just Wow. How stupid could those scandinavians be? They know full well what it meant to draw a picture, one intended for comedic effect at that, of the prophet Mohammed and they do it anyway. And then they wonder why people are freaking the fuck out? I can't put into words how stupid those newspapers are.

If you think they're really wondering you haven't been paying attention. The Norwegian paper in particular (as for the ones published in France and Germany) was more used as a mocking effect. However, they have been sharply critized for doing it by most people. Does that mean the actions are justified and that every Scandinavian is responsible? Several muslims in Norway and Denmark have over the past few years been very vocal that we shouldn't judge every muslim by the actions of a few and call every muslim a terrorist. However, when a Norwegian "paper" with a total sale of 5000 copies over the entire year of 2005 prints some images, suddenly ALL OF NORWAY is responsible for it? The hypocrizy of these imams is so disgusting I can't find the words to describe it. Do I believe these papers should have printed the images? No, it was in bad taste. Were they in their right to do so? Yes. Are the reactions warranted? Hell no.

Rachel: Making an image of Christ doesn't have anywhere near the same ramifications as making an image of Mohammed. No where in the bible does it say "Don't make an image of Jesus." I'm sure you might respond with something to the effect of "Well people make images of God and it says you can't do that in the bible", which leads me to my point since the background for the statement is the dominance of secularism in the West...

Well, neither does the Quran. It does NOT explicitly forbid creating images of Muhammed. According to someone who was interviewed on radio here, it's a matter of culture rather than explicit Quran law.

All: You can't go applying your Western standards of liberality and what not to people who don't buy into the same bullshit as you. A defense of Free fucking speech is moot at the point at which there is a cultural clash at play. You don't smoke in an African tribe's sacred cave with your friends and then when they piss on you about it, you say I have the freedom to goddamn assembly. It is moronic to think so.

Bull-fucking-shit. We're talking about people who LIVE in Denmark, are Danish citizens, that threaten to go on a suicide bombing mission because of these pictures. Want to throw someone out of Gaza? Fine, that's their right, but do NOT show up here and expect western society to change to suit their needs. We HAVE freedom of speech, they need to adjust to it, not the other way around.

I woud wager many Jews living in Norway and Denmark are horrified at how freely neo-nazis are able to roam here. Tough luck, that's the way it works. There is a professor in Sweden who has written a shitload of stuff on the holocaust never happening. Got the Jews pissed off? Big time, but again, tough luck, that's how it works in a free western society.

Don't draw the "smoking in their cave" thing, because the pictures were printed in a Danish newspaper and a christian conservative Norwegian "paper". A better analogy would be the African tribe sitting in YOUR LIVING ROOM complaining about you smoking.

[CTY]

OMG OMG, THEY HATE MORE THAN THE USA AND ENGLAND NOW, OMG OMG OMG! Seriously, all this is stupid. People need to give up organized religion.

[Mad Processor]

A couple of other things dermensch, the pictures have now been published in a couple of Arab newspapers as well. One Jordanian one even asked (paraphrased) "is this worse than pictures of suicide bombers or videos of extremists threatening to cut the throats of hostages?".

And to illustrate how groupthink works, the pictures were publised in september (!), yet the whole thing accelerated when a couple of Arab news stationes picked up on it. Suddenly muslims here were objecting to it as well, even though the debate was pretty regular up to that point.

[DaPunisher]

Originally Posted by Mad Processor

A couple of other things dermensch, the pictures have now been published in a couple of Arab newspapers as well. One Jordanian one even asked (paraphrased) "is this worse than pictures of suicide bombers or videos of extremists threatening to cut the throats of hostages?".

And to illustrate how groupthink works, the pictures were publised in september (!), yet the whole thing accelerated when a couple of Arab news stationes picked up on it. Suddenly muslims here were objecting to it as well, even though the debate was pretty regular up to that point.

wait so the cartton or whatever that they're bitching about was originally published in september of last year?

[Mad Processor]

Originally Posted by DaPunisher

wait so the cartton or whatever that they're bitching about was originally published in september of last year?

Yes.

[Dewey's Diva]

Originally Posted by derUbermensch

Rachel: Making an image of Christ doesn't have anywhere near the same ramifications as making an image of Mohammed. No where in the bible does it say "Don't make an image of Jesus." I'm sure you might respond with something to the effect of "Well people make images of God and it says you can't do that in the bible", which leads me to my point since the background for the statement is the dominance of secularism in the West...

I thought that might be the case... I am not as familiar with the Koran as I should be, but I work at a university with a large Muslim student population and was actually planning to enquire about that point with a Muslim woman that I speak to often.

I guess the question becomes to what degree does respect come into play in a freedom of speech issue. I wonder what the response would have been if this had been an American newspaper publishing this image, rather than a European one.

I guess the "dominance of secularism in the West" has to do with your perspective - although I would identify as a Christian, I am a strong believer in seperation of church and state. Living in a diverse region with many people of different cultures and faiths, I think it is better to remove the trappings of most of it and teach about all of it. I find the fact that Virginia has a "moment of silence" (no matter how broadly it is defined) disconcerting and would remove my kids from the public school if intelligent design was taught as scientific theory. I have my own ways of reconciling my belief in a creator and science of evolution and that is what will be taught to my children. I don't need some dumb ass mudding the waters. Sunday school is on Sundays at church, not the rest of the week at taxpayer expense. But I am starting to digress... I think there isn't enough secularism, at least where I live.

[Dewey's Diva]

Originally Posted by NHBFighter84

OMG OMG, THEY HATE MORE THAN THE USA AND ENGLAND NOW, OMG OMG OMG! Seriously, all this is stupid. People need to give up organized religion.

marx2.jpe

"I told you all it was the opiate of the masses, dammit. Then again, now you have cable..."

[DaPunisher]

can i post the pics in question, is that ok?

[IX Equilibrium]

Originally Posted by DaPunisher

can i post the pics in question, is that ok?

of fucking course

[Dewey's Diva]

Just in case anyone cared... cultural sensitivity or political expediency - you be the judge.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/religion_...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-

US sides with Muslims in cartoon dispute
18 minutes ago


Washington on Friday condemned caricatures in European newspapers of the Prophet Mohammad, siding with Muslims who are outraged that the publications put press freedom over respect for religion.

By inserting itself into a dispute that has become a lightning rod for anti-European sentiment across the Muslim world, the United States could help its own battered image among Muslims.

"These cartoons are indeed offensive to the belief of Muslims," State Department spokesman Kurtis Cooper said in answer to a question. "We all fully recognize and respect freedom of the press and expression but it must be coupled with press responsibility. Inciting religious or ethnic hatreds in this manner is not acceptable."

"We call for tolerance and respect for all communities for their religious beliefs and practices," he added.

Major U.S. publications have not republished the cartoons, which include depictions of Mohammad as a terrorist. That is in contrast to European media, which responded to the criticism against the original Danish newspaper that printed the caricatures by republishing the offensive images themselves.